Discussion in 'onTopic' started by Briana, 26 Nov 2010.

  1. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density

    Well then by your logic, as long as any president is doing anything which keeps your finances profitable is ok by you. That however, is far too shallow seeing how anyone that bought into Citibank, GM, or other institutions back in late 08 and early 09, have made a mint. My neighbor invested into Citi to the tune of $200k return this year - I am sure he is happy as well, regardless of his political party affiliation.
  2. nina

    nina still prettier than you

    the only recent major changes to aussie medical system i can think of were those that the usa demanded in return for a tree trade agreement under mr bush.
    specifically, changes to the pharmaceutical benefit scheme intended to 'protect' the american corporates at the expense of australian citizens.
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  3. ev0L

    ev0L Ghost in The Shell

    my gawd !! tree's have health care...
    wow !! that is universal health isnt it .
  4. Fatz

    Fatz a professional.

    I believe that was the piece of legislation that included prescription drug coverage for seniors. It's noteworthy because it's projected to be more expensive than the entire Obamacare package from top to bottom.
  5. Charlemagne Allen

    Charlemagne Allen The Contessa

    The US private system costs significantly more than the European system. The Europeans are cutting back because they want to balance their budgets, but it's not removing the whole system. It's just cutting unemployment and other benefits to physically push people into the street, and it's very impopular in many quarters because it penalizes the poorest who actually depend on those benefits while not changing anything. Companies in the US and Europe tend to sit on their workforces and not hire new people because they don't want to spend capital. Increased benefits/strict procedures for firing for workers in France do play a role in reluctance to hire, but so do other factors. In Germany, people are trained very extensively for certain tasks. You need to be tested to create a certain type of furniture even, and if you switch jobs at the furniture plant, you have to do a new test. This is why German stuff is such quality, but it also means that people tend to have very specialized jobs and are restricted in hiring.

    So yeah, I would have to beg to differ.
  6. Govi

    Govi Ça va chier.

    From your link, Bri:

    This does not look like a national plan to privatize medical insurance and medical care, although Minister Roesler is pretty clear that he and the coalition of which he is part are looking to dismantle all government intervention in the German economy.

    To do that, the governing coalition in Germany is busy trying to put one over on the Germans: capitation. They have done it by not calling it capitation. Of course, this amounts to lying, in this case a pretty flimsy lie. The coalition will not last long, as a consequence, and most of their accomplishments in this regard will be redone when the coalition is voted out. I did not say undone, because the Germans are also aware that there are no free lunches, that medical care must be paid for by someone. They will readjust who pays and how much.

    As we have done.

    At present, Bri, your 50,000 uninsured get treatment nonetheless. However, each treatment is more expensive because it begins with emergency room treatment and requires more hospital facilities for their more extreme conditions. These extreme expenses will be averted by the 50,000 being treated earlier, at lesser stages of their illness, and consequently with less extreme measures.
  7. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density

    Of course the people are against the reform.

    Hand outs rule. People want crap for free always..

    Those expenses are not even extreme, but fairly common.

    Right now the insured in the U.S. run to doctors and clinics willy nilly for common colds, so let's just watch the explosion if this health care bullshit goes into effect, and it looks like, thanks to Obama's awesome 2 years of governing that turned all those BLUE STATES against him, that it won't. And thank goodness, because I have already been made a victim of the newly yet implemented plan by my shrink dumping me when she learned i was losing my insurance. Why? Because under the new plan she won't be allowed to dump me so easily, and when she treats me she will have to cross her fingers and hope that she gets reimbursed sooner than 6 months and hopefully for more than 20% being predicted and the 50% that is common for government medicare reimbursements - 6 months after billing.

    So that means, a woman that has given me more than $2000 usd in free medication EVERY MONTH for more than 3 years dumped me so that she is not FORCED to keep me as a charity along with hundreds of other patients - what a freaking drain on her business that would be if she would even be able to stay in business when a chunk of her clients go from paying $100 per visit to her getting reimbursed $20 to $50 - total bullshit. Way to go Obama, way to go fucked up health care plan that no one was allowed to read and Nancy Pelosi gleefully exclaimed "we'll know what is in it after we vote for it".

    Smart politics for the win - not. Lies and denial.

    I can't wait until this shit is dead and something practical and reasonable is offered up instead, without all the controversy of death panels and what not, which are just as real as the paper the plan was printed on because like ALL THINGS IN LAW & GOVERNMENTS - What is not expressly forbidden, will be done, no matter what politician(s) or President says it will not - or else the language would be there to specifically forbid any such nonsense, and it does not.
  8. Govi

    Govi Ça va chier.

    All the lies that the Republicans have been broadcasting about HCR are simply lies. I hope you've read a decent summary of HCR, Bri, because while your present doctor may have interpreted HCR to mean that she had to dump you or suffer increased losses, that's neither the Law's intent nor its desired effect.

    I don't understand how the HCR law would force your doctor to keep you as charity. I can't think under what provision of the law that would fall. One idea of the HCR law is to prevent from happening what has happened to you.

    Getting health insurance now is difficult, if like me, you are an individual paying for her own. I'm switching to California's COBRA now, having exhausted my federal COBRA. Both COBRA provisions are about the same cost as if I went to Blue Cross and bought insurance direct from them. It's such a vast paperwork headache, and I think that one thing that the HCR law has not done is to reduce the paperwork involved. I wouldn't even bother with COBRA, except I understand that during the COBRA period, they cannot kick me off if I get really sick. My health is good (knock on wood!), but of course there's no knowing how long my luck will hold that way. That's what insurance is about, of course. I pay lots while healthy as do all the other insureds, all hoping that we never get our money back, but wanting to be sure that it's there if our luck runs out.
  9. Morgaine Alter

    Morgaine Alter ppl watching what I like

    Govi I am sure you are aware COBRA is expensive normally hmm +15% over the cost of the policy you were on before and individual plans can be cheaper if qualified for.
    No they cannot kick you off COBRA.

    *disclaimer I have not read this thread really
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  10. JohnnyVann

    JohnnyVann Acthp!

    Just want to say it's HAWT watching Briana and Govi go at it :D

    Oh, and Morgaina, I don't know about currently but in the early 90s it could be MUCH more than 15%, unless you mean the total cost and not just employee cost. You have to pay yours and the employer's contribution which means it is WAY more than you were paying.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Govi

    Govi Ça va chier.

    I am, Morgaine, thank you. I've price shopped. The no-kick business I favor enough to pay a bit more.

    California has insurers that are total bastards, searching for anything to kick you off if they find that they're on the hook for a serious illness: if I fail to report that I suffered some ailment--minor and forgotten--and in their detailed research of my medical records, find that I forgot to record or report that ailment on my present insurance paperwork, BANG, I'm not covered. I've got good health, but I don't remember every visit, every problem. California's insurance commissioner is active in going after these things, but I want to avoid the stress, if it ever happens: being seriously ill is enough without having to fight a GD insurer.
  12. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density


    "All the lies that the Republicans have been broadcasting"?????

    That sounds pretty much like a universal absolute for the most part. Fairly scary Govi, did not know you truly saw the party that way - extremely closed minded. Even I do not see or say "All Democrats do 'X'".

    No, not at all. I don't know what part of judicial history you are not reading to recognize the very real effect of laws and how they work: Those acts that a law does not expressly forbid will be committed - period, historical fact.

    It has never been Republican nor Conservative to deal in matters of population control, as the dems have constantly brought up in various forms since the start of 90's, so, not many expect that to change.
    And honesty, the "Laws intent nor desired effect" does matter at all when those supposed unintended effects are occurring, which says to me, the law was poorly enacted, and poorly written in the first place, or such undesired effects would not be happening. And sorry, my ex-doc did not mis-interpret the HCR, nor have hundreds of thousands of other doctors who don't support it either, they are covering their asses from a duplicitous Democratic Congress FORCING laws without a care for what the law contains.

    Your post alone should be proof enough that this law has been poorly enacted, and the public is sorely ill-informed purposefully by the will of the Democrat Legislative branch of the U.S. Government as all they cared to do was PASS A LAW WITHOUT READING THE LANGUAGE - how smart is that....
  13. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density

    And another thing.

    In my work at a lobbying firm, the first thing i learned is this:

    Senators & Reps - do not read laws nor write laws, they read "FACT SHEETS" written and handed to them by lobbyist aka lawyer - who probably wrote the bill in the first place - just before they step onto the floor to support said legislation. So it was fairly idiotic for the law to be rushed through so fast in the first place when not a single fucking Senator or Representative probably had in more than 1% of the total written law in the first place.

  14. Govi

    Govi Ça va chier.

    I'm sorry, Bri, but unless you are talking about some specific part of the law which forced your doctor to do something, it's just a contest of anecdotes. I skimmed the entire document back when it had reached its final votes. I will be happy to discuss it or any summary of it.

    I think that the GOP/TP have broadcast endless lies about the HCR Law, to terrify Americans into supporting a Republican Tea Party resurgence. There has been little attempt to inform the public, but a lot of effort to deceive us. When Americans are polled about what the HCR Law does, without knowing that the question embodies a provision of the HCR, they are for it, for the HCR Law's provision. The only exception is the tax that is a person's alternative to participating in the HCR; more than 2/3 of respondents did not like that.
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  15. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density

    O.k. well that pretty much ends my ability to discuss this rationally. I see that you have the full on: All republicans "A", all Tea Party "B":confused:. Whatever.

    An entire party is out to do evil against the country.:rolleyes:

    "Skimming" nearly 3,000 pages hardly makes for an ability to have any sort of in-depth conversation of any substance on the topic. Especially once we enter the lopsided realm of GOP/TP = Evil, that I never knew you invested in, and find rather shocking.

    And in the end you still avoid a truism:

    What the law does not expressly forbid, will be committed - eventually - always. HISTORICAL FACT.

    Eliminating such chances of any sort of "LIES THE GOP/TP" HAS BEEN FEAR MONGERING WITH" is as easy as having a junior esquire legislative liaison in the office write up a paragraph clause - pretty simple - I have worked intimately with the law making process in Illinois and have posted many messages between the SL forums, SLU, SC1, SC2 on the process that I am very very familiar with.
  16. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density

    Uh, really?

    Poll data?



    Last I checked, your glorious Dem's were washed out of their own Blue states, en masse. WTF is with that? I bet you think like the other 'extremist' think, which is something along the line that "Obama did not try hard enough so now he is suffering as the electorate punishes him", which is - even if you do not invest in such a belief - a fallacy. Historical pendulum swings of House/Senate control is never about "I am angry at my party for not trying hard enough to enact our agenda so i will vote in the opposing party that I know for sure has plans to unravel the work my Presidential choice and winner has done so far because that some how will work towards my party's agenda or interest in the end". LOL.

    Check with the democratic pundits and of course: Obama did not try hard enough; Obama did not focus on jobs; Obama did not focus on the economy. BULLSHIT - he sure as hell focused on jobs and the economy - how many times in his constant post election campaigning tours post election speeches, did he make claims about SAVING or CREATING 'x' many jobs?? ZOMG non-stop bullshit about that until the damn conservative radio goons like Rush and Hannity hammered that terminology to a point where, guess what? OBAMA and BIDEN stopped using the "saved or created" bullshit terminology - why? Because it was bullshit and unquantifiable, and agencies were revealing crap like them spending 700,000usd to create 2-3 positions which lasted a total of 6-8 months. LOL. Right.

    Obama and the DEMS focused on: Health Care Reform -misnomer-, Cap and Trade, and lying about Increasing Taxes indirectly by means of ending the Bush era Tax Cuts - That sure worked out well for him and his party.

    And since we want to go with pollers and respondents from Democratic outlets; "62 percent of the voters said that the economy was the key factor determining their vote. The polls show that the voters want tax cuts not tax increases, modification or repeal of health care, spending cuts and above all jobs." - Mark Penn - HUFFINGTON POST.

    Oh my...i guess it looks like 62% of the voters cared more for the REPUBLICAN direction that was espoused many times by the Republican leaders in the House and Senate, which the Dems totally ignored.

    There are polls to prove anything. It is all in the wording and then comes the usual removal of the polling data from the context that achieved the numbers. I am quite sure most people do want Health Care in the U.S., that was never really an issue and hardly a win for any polling data when the majority does not like the way the Health Care plan is being enacted, the provisions made public, etc.. BUT I GUESS THAT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER IF YOU DISMISS IT ALL WITH A "PEOPLE BELIEVED THE CONSTANT LIES THE GOP & TP PLAYED OVER AND OVER AGAIN", and as far as I am concerned, if true, only reinforces my feelings that most people should not be allowed to vote without a test.
  17. Charlemagne Allen

    Charlemagne Allen The Contessa

    The countries that are doing well today are the countries that invested a lot into their people and helped them get into professional jobs and enter the middle class. India and China are a growing world powers because they have created large numbers of educated lab technicians, IT people, et al. in a short time. To create this kind of situation, the massive inequalities in US society hold us back: we have the best universities in the world, but we are 11th overall in quality of life, and there is a large portion of the population that is basically out of work because of industrial outsourcing. America needs to invest more from the cradle to the grave so that they can encourage intellectual/creative industry and take over the world again, beceause that kind of open freedom made it an economy powerhouse. The massive inequalities only hold back large parts of the population and make them dependant on charity and overly-complex programs dating to the 60's. Ergo, a national health service and safety net a la Britain would be the best investment.
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  18. Charlemagne Allen

    Charlemagne Allen The Contessa

    Actually, all the polling data I've seen suggests that people don't love the GOP much more than they did before the election. The Dems lost because there is an historical trend against incumbent's parties, the economy sucks horribly, and because hardcore Democrats were annoyed that Obama was basically a rightwinger and didn't give enough of a shit to come out to vote.

    Certainly, Reagan took a massive hit in 1982 when the Dems took over the Congress. This was after Regan was elected due to a massive support from moderates/undecided, but no one says Reagan was a failed president, no matter what they think of what he did. Truman made a massive recovery as well, after a trouncing in the polls. So we'll see what happens.
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Govi

    Govi Ça va chier.

    I usually feel the same. However, I didn't offer poll data; I summarized results.
    May I suggest you look at this presentation of the elections 0f 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, and 2010? The shifts are as always, in states/districts that neither major party has a traditional hold, not as you assert, the Democrats "own Blue states." More so, if you look at things (outside of Texas, which DeLay did a special gerrymandering job on, insofar as Democratic Austin is concerned), you will find, as I do, that the divide is mostly along urban versus suburban/rural lines. As to the rest of your words, here, they are not my thoughts nor sentiments.
    It's almost all swing. And that swing is so pronounced because the recovery is a long slow one.
    A large part of the Republican Tea Party spends a great deal of time telling the American people that they can have their cake and eat it, too. This large part decries the enormous federal government budget and claims that by trimming the smallest part of it, by cutting the "waste" from it and eliminating the "unnecessary" parts of it, that the budget will come into balance automatically. Ranking House Republican Paul D. Ryan and those who signed his "The Path to American Prosperity" report are the only Republicans who are willing to tell the truth to the American people about the federal budget and they kept pretty quiet about it during the 2010 election. I expect that we will hear more about this plan soon, because if the Republican Tea Party expects to deliver balanced budgets, they are going to have to increase taxes and reduce Social Security/Medicare and the military budget. There is not enough money in the entire discretionary portion of the federal budget to alleviate the projected deficits.

    So, yes, I say the Republican Tea Party lied to the American public, lied profoundly and deeply, a fraud that will have them roundly spanked at some near future election, as the American people wake up to what they all know in their hearts: there are no free lunches.
  20. Briana

    Briana Vibrating erver closer to 4th Density


    Seriously... Wow. Historical incumbent loss trends...Obama is a right winger, "Republican Tea Party" lies to the country.

    ....Well... not much to say in response to you two. Fairly -extreme- liberal perspectives...

    I do love the absolutism's though. LOL. They are usually a wake up call for people that something is amiss.

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